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What produces Speed?
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mrmike



Joined: 06 Sep 2007
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Location: coronado, ca

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

have you ever seen a halibut swim when you try to spear it all you see is a puff of sand and your dinner is history
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Soulglider



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:33 pm    Post subject: ax Reply with quote

notice how a halibut swims. its flat but to go straight it arches itself side to side creating a concave from side to side, just like one of my finless boards...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2xIiR7FMEw
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bgreen



Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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Location: Qld. Oz

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim,

I don't profess to know anything much about the dynamics of planes or fish. The tail on a plane would I imagine have a stabilsing function, while the fins on fish are part of a body that moves. Imagine a surfboard that could wriggle and build speed. A mat is probably the only thing even vaguely able to change shape.

I believe Harry Akisada's board's feature concave in a guitar pick style board. They are supposed ti be very fast. In some of the interviews that are in the wings, I plan to ask a few design questions. It will be interesting to see if there is much consensus regarding key design elements.

Bob
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Soulglider



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:20 am    Post subject: hs Reply with quote

bob, i dont much on my own either. most of my knowledge is regurgitated or experience. i do own a 4th gear flyer mat from Paul Gross and a sppon. frankly, the spoon feels like a mat but with more control and i know from experience a heck a lot faster. now, i believe that, with the knowledge we have thus far, we are all riding boards of like speed for the variables we have/put in them. take for instance the 8' belly board Paul Gross made for that feller, thats posted on swaylocks (do a search on swaylocks if you havent seen it yet), that board flies! it didnt maneuver as well as my boards, mats, boogers, or wood paipos but, it did "seem" faster. also, i have a couple of wood paipos that folks have ridden and say wow, these are the fastest things i've ever ridden but to me, they are slow compared to black magic and my other foam boards. i have a 5'x23 quad fish that hauls "A" but, it doesnt give me the feeling of my 4'5's. i think surfing prone means things "seem" faster, the go cart effect. i think it has a lot to do with perception. surffoils is onto it. gravity baby. if we had a way of propulsion then we could really add speed but as it is right now, speed might be over rated except for just the feel of speed (which is really fun) but most of my boards are fast enough to get way out on the shoulder (outrunning a wave)so, maybe the thing we/i think we're looking for, with speed, is the speed to make a junky closeout or mushy soup type waves surfable...sorry for thjumbled post, its early! Wink
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Nels
Dolphin Glider


Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 340
Location: Ventura County, California

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but as it is right now, speed might be over rated except for just the feel of speed (which is really fun) but most of my boards are fast enough to get way out on the shoulder (outrunning a wave)so, maybe the thing we/i think we're looking for, with speed, is the speed to make a junky closeout or mushy soup type waves surfable...


I have had conversations on just this subject with Dale Solomonson, who makes mats for many of the best surfers on the planet and who get to ride waves most of the rest of us can only dream about. For the most part surfing those waves are handful-in-lifetime experiences for the vast majority of us.

How fast do we really need to go? Just like Soulglider says...ffast enough to make the wave and maybe do things we want to do.

I've told Dale many many times the "final frontier" may be junk closeouts. He makes Ferrarri-type equipment and thus isn't terribly interested beyond pointing out that Greenough tends to ride anything available, much of which would classify as junk. Photos that have surfaced however tend to look both warmer and better than some of the crap closeouts I see all the time.

Propulsion...get a PWC. I wouldn't want anything mechanical that near my huevos, nor would the bucking that would inevitably come from beyond-wave-speed be pleasant.
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global ernie



Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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Location: northern nsw

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:16 pm    Post subject: the realm of ideaology and dogma Reply with quote

i subscribe to mr mike's view...flat is fastest,the HPD's certainly are quick as claimed. bob simmons had a fairly good grip on the topic and is worth consideration. glossy and oiled/polished surfaces are not as efficient as a 240 or 400 grit wet rub finish (but look better) due to boundary layer dynamics. Fins increase drag, on a tri fin each fin accounts for about 10% of total drag.
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bgreen



Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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Location: Qld. Oz

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recall Bob McTavish saying in an interview a while back that, with growing crowds, making boards that will surf choppy waves is a required development.

There is the go-kart perception of speed component - no doubt. But there is also a planing difference between boards of similar shapes. I have a board that is slightly more bouyant than the original and it does plane faster. How much faster is questionable but just fast enough to make a section the other board wouldn't.

I will often swap boards mid surf and my flat wooden paipo planes faster than my nofin in small waves (NB in small waves). Being able to generate speed in a bigger wave is a different proposition and the gravity effect will also come into play. I think we have a great opportunity to test some of these things without needing equipment that may/may not accurately capture what is going on in the water. Tim's black board for example. Make a model, with 3 fins slots - so it can be ridden as a single or twin fin or finless. Swap the fin configurations during the surf.

Mats and HPD are two craft that do seem to generate bursts of speed - watching them zoom past some other craft is an indication of this. The wave Greenough typically surfs is a fairly weak, long lined wave with sections. A wave shortboarders don't flock to.


Bob
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surffoils



Joined: 12 May 2007
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Location: Gold Coast, (finally), Australia

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look at a board as a deflector of energy. It deflects the water, which holds the energy. We ride pure water/energy/power.
That power exists in varying amounts at various positions and depths (and from outside the wave) because a wave isnt a flat plane thats been rolled, its a 3-D block of energy.
So a flat paipo deflects the surface power and the thin layer of water(power) directly beneath it, but if you put fins on a board they deflect not only the rising water coming up the face but interact with the 3-D volume of water/power thats within the wave as well as resisting the force of gravity. Fins create some negative drag but they also return a higher amount of positive control of the waves energy.
In a steep tube, a surfboard has a low contact area with the wave and is designed to have minimal area in the tail because the power of the rising water is too great to control by deflection, but a series of 3 fins taps in and controls power from within the wave and gravity.
From what I observe, the greater the efficiency of deflection the greater the lift and speed so I advocate flat bottoms as being the fastest, however fins provide alternate and additional speed and control that I prefer to having no fins.
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Soulglider



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: x Reply with quote

wow, good stuff! theres some real thinkin goin on here. i would love to get/design the board that would help me get the satisfaction i need/desire to be able to surf closed out mush burgers. here in san diego, i cant tell you how many crappy waves there is close to my house. i find myself driving 45 minutes up to oside to get what i want. it gets old driving that much and the whole deal can be destroyed by certain types in the water-if you know what i mean....can man seemingly go backwards as far as wave quality goes and still be satisfied? is there a guru out there that teaches such things? ohm ohm ohmmmmmmmmm
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mrmike



Joined: 06 Sep 2007
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Location: coronado, ca

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya you can. I surf coronado almost every day talk about close out you just take off enjoy the one second ride get tubed then close your eyes then do it all over again it is fun or I would not go. anybody can surf a perfect wave. it get old. trying to make a bad wave is more fun and when you make one it makes your day MRMIKE Very Happy
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Soulglider



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:33 pm    Post subject: sda Reply with quote

mrmike close outs hurt my already tender back. remember, OB that day? launched and went directly to the chiropractor? are you really the crap wave guru i've been searching for, all hail mighty Guru MrMike!!!! we need to spend some time together so you can teach me oooo great one. yes, this is tongue and cheek a little but i am serious mike, i need a brain overhaul. are you willin to travel from pb up to del mar teaching me what to look for and a re-programming? please help! Wink
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mrmike



Joined: 06 Sep 2007
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Location: coronado, ca

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

any day as long as it is in the morning I am no good after noon I need my napepoo. this pic is coronado on a good day

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Soulglider



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:26 pm    Post subject: c Reply with quote

you look sooooo cozy in the pocket! except youre smothered in rubber!
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mrmike



Joined: 06 Sep 2007
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Location: coronado, ca

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh but it is so so warm Laughing
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rodndtube
Dolphin Glider


Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 690
Location: USA, MD, Baltimore

PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hell, Mr Mike, the water is relatively WARM in San Diego (compared to N. Oregon and the Mid-Atlantic East Coast right now!). However, I still prefer the tropics Smile
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