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Hackin' at lumps of ply, advise before I waste resources!

 
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GadgetUK



Joined: 07 Aug 2009
Posts:

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:36 am    Post subject: Hackin' at lumps of ply, advise before I waste resources! Reply with quote

I bin lurkin' for a while, and now I'm tempted to chop
guitar-pick out of a cooperative sheet o' ply.
I like the shape of the HPD paipos, that rounded delta outline,
http://www.paipo.com/paipo-history.html
mebbe blending it with a bit of swallowtail.
HPD seem to go for dims of 40x30", somewhat wider than standard, but I
like the idea of that. Might go with 48" long to start with (seeing as
I'm using ply), and cut it down as I go.
I wanna go finless... the board that is (at least to start with). What
do you recommend for rails, hard, square, knifey, rounded? (not that
1/2" ply give a broad canvas for rail profile)
I thought I would steam bend a bit of nose rocker, what do you think
about bending in a bit of concave, or should I stick with classic
flat?
Oh, and lastly, thickness. I hear folk talk of 1/4" ply for super
flex, but that sounds a bit fragile. Would 1/2" still have some flex?
(could split the line at 3/8" I guess)

What's your take on this?
(The original HPD outline is in black, mine is in green)

My rails are more curved than the HPD, are straight rails a help?
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Uncle Grumpy



Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts:
Location: San Clemente

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aloha!
On stock that thin I've found rail shape to not matter too much.
The rails on Tom Wegener's Alaia's are pretty much square with slightly eased corners.
Just ease the edges enough that you won't get splinters Shocked
For rocker or curve you can just leave it in hot water in the tub or shower for a bit instead of steam which is more appropriate for solid wood.
While it's wet, set whatever curve you want with bricks or sandbags or whatever weight you've got.
Check out OG-AZN's slab here:
http://rodndtube.com/paipo/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4580&highlight=#4580

Good Luck Cool
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kage
Dolphin Glider


Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 286
Location: Santa Cruz

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome Gadget,
I don't have anything to say about construction, far more experienced souls there are here to guide you on that. The specs of the HPD I do know a little about. Rails are rounded the same 100%, I agree with U.G. that they probably don't matter too much with such a thin shape. If you have the ability to carve out some thickness of your ply I would say 3/8" to a 1/2" and then thinner in the center. I think by curving the rails front to back you might sacrifice some of the down the line speed and tracking and stability for turning. That may come down to a "the way you ride" type thing, much of my turning on an HPD comes from my flippers and rocking the rail in to and out of the wall. The fish tail is interesting and I have thought about it too, the only thing I wonder is if by chopping out the center back are you removing the "lever" you have that pushes the rail into the wave?
I have seen pictures of the old guitar pick shapes in plywood and what I wonder is how do they curve the nose in two directions (front and side rocker) without crimping the plywood? Any of you master craftsmen know how this is done?
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GadgetUK



Joined: 07 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kage wrote:
I wonder is how do they curve the nose in two directions (front and side rocker) without crimping the plywood?

So do the HPDs have a rolled bottom?
They look like they do a bit, out at the rail.
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OG-AZN



Joined: 27 Jul 2009
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Location: Norcal

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Gadget, good to see others doing ply boards. Here's my 2 cents: As to thickness, 1/4" or 3/8" seems too thin. I'd go w/ at least 1/2" nominal unless you're using something fancier than generic home store ply, or if you're really light. My latest board is made of 1/2" generic ply and it flexes quite a bit (I'm 5' 10" & 170+ lbs). Anymore flex and I wouldn't feel comfortable w/ it. It feels kinda like a well worn bodyboard. The flex really works to your advantage on steep takeoffs, bottom turns, and especially in the barrel. Not too well if you get caught in front of a good size whitewash. I'm also a little concerned w/ long term durability w/ all the flexing; but it's just a pc of scrap plywood. The flex isn't noticeable when planing across the open face, and I've been able to do knee rides and pull bodyboard style rollos in knee to couple ft overhead surf w/ the 1/2" thick board. The positive attributes of the flex were kind of a revelation since the boards we made & rode as kids were a lot thicker (5/8" - 3/4") and had very little flex ( I was a heck of a lot lighter then, of course). Our thinking back then was the stiffer the better.

As to rails, I tried for 60/40 bodyboard style rails on my latest board at the nose and tail fading to 50/50 in the middle. Just eyeballed it though. Seems to strike a good balance edge holding & turning wise. I originally shaped the rail/ chine transition very sharp /knifey, but that didn't feel comfortable in my hand so I rounded them a bit. Back in the day, we used to make our boards w/ what we called reversed, or what Wegener calls "modern rails" on his site. I remember that this style held the face really well on larger waves, at the expense of loose turns. Never felt the need for a skeg on my boards, which are around 41-43", ridden mostly prone . I'd def consider it if I was riding a 48" board though, and going for more kneerides and standups.

Outline wise, I try to make sure the nose area where you naturally hold onto for "paddling" and take offs is the right width to keep your arms in a neutral position, parallel to your body. Not forcing you to spread your arms out too much or tuck them in. The proposed outline looks a little wide up front, but if you're really broad shouldered, go for it. I use fairly straight rails in the mid section w/ a flair at the last 1/3 towards the tail on my ply boards. I've always put bodyboard style crescent/swallow tails on my paipos. Never felt comfortable w/ a squared or round tail on a flat deck paipo or bodyboard. Kage brings up a good point about the leverage off the tail. I've found that very shallow V's work better than deep cuts. IMHO, the HPD style shape is too wide in the middle & tail for a flat ply paipo, for an "average" size person. It obviously works better if you can replicate the HPD concave & rocker. If you can't, I'd narrow/elongate the basic outline for a flat ply board.

I've never purposely put a concave or rocker on any of my paipos. My latest board has a very subtle nose lift and deck concave from natural warping. I doubt that this feature has any practical effect as opposed to the much greater natural flexing of the board. If you're going to 48" on your board, a little nose lift probably won't hurt. I wonder how much steam or hot water effects the strength of the ply laminations though. Good luck w/ your project. Post pics when you're done.
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Uncle Grumpy



Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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Location: San Clemente

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrevOG-AZN,
These days all but the absolute cheapest plywood is made with water resistant glues. Any A-C or even CDX is "waterproof".
The really good Meranti-Occume type marine plys have glues that are boil proof. Shocked
Marine ply costs just a little more then regular big box ply but because of the thicker veneers and lack of voids it's much nicer to work with and takes any finish better.
The end product will show the quality.
The typical 5' X 5' "Baltic" Birch type ply normally has waterproof glue but the wood itself is prone to rot when it gets wet.
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Poobah
Dolphin Glider


Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 696
Location: California, San Diego

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like your template, but I think you should make two sizes...big and little.

Here's a vintage Paipo Nui that was on Ebay several years ago...

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp16/Lamaroos/pnui12.jpg
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bgreen



Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts:
Location: Qld. Oz

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd start with hard, square rails and soften the edges if you need to after riding it. Thickness will be a balance - I'd certainly try at least 1/2 ", if this is too floaty or rigid you can always thin it a bit. I would keep thickness through the middle and thin the rails. Some like a real flexy feel that a thin board will give, however you will need to work harder to paddle it.

I believe the noselift of the Paipo Nui boards (foreunner of the HPD) was obtained by building up the nose area with strips of wood which were then ground into shape - later moulds & presses were used.

The beauty of wood is that you can always reshape it.


Bob
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bgreen



Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts:
Location: Qld. Oz

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also check out pages 152-4 & 156-7 of the book excerpts Rod posted that relate to the design that you are interested in:

http://www.rodndtube.com/paipo/pubs/BookSummaries.shtml#KellyJohn

Bob
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kage
Dolphin Glider


Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 286
Location: Santa Cruz

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So do the HPDs have a rolled bottom?

They have a dished out nose, just about a half of a circle that flattens as you go back. I like the nose rocker in front to keep from pearling and the smooth transition of the rocker from front to side (I think) part of the key why the HPD shape works so well (for me anyway). It's a wide board but if your weight is forward and you are "light" on the board the transition from rail to rail is very fast.
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