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Asymmetrical Paipo Designs and Hydrofoils
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Poobah
Dolphin Glider


Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 696
Location: California, San Diego

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've bent small things like PVC ceiling fan blades and plastic cutting boards in boiling water. I've also used an electric heat gun, like the kind used for stripping paint. Boiling water has the advantage of even temperature on both sides of the plastic. Good heat transfer and less of a fume problem, too. I understand it's a bad thing to cool the plastic too fast. I read something somewhere that warned against using the gas oven in your kitchen for bending plastic. Gnarly fumes and explosion possibilities. Maybe with a propane BBQ it might be best to heat the BBQ up to say 250 degrees, and turn off the flame before you put the plastic inside. It might even be possible to do it at the beach over the hot coals in a fire ring (with welding gloves.)

I like your idea for a plastic sheet paipo. It's been on my "to do" list for a while, like take a Roger Wayland bell template and bend the corner flares around to become fins. Kick the nose. Glue on some sort of soft foam or rubber deck....a one day paipo project. Surprised

This template, but in 3D.....

http://vagabondsurf.com/WaylandHandboard2.jpg
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surffoils



Joined: 12 May 2007
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Location: Gold Coast, (finally), Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:20 am    Post subject: Flipper and other ideas. Reply with quote

The outside BBQ was my first choice rather than then kitchen oven, plus I figured a backyard explosion was better than a house fire !
I dig the Wayland Handboard,but thats the problem, theres so many things to try and not enough time to do it all !

Heres a pic of some of the stuff Im doing now or havent finished..

Theres (1) the Flipper,
(2) a single piece skateboard truck,
(3) a bodyboard with twin hydrofoils,
and (4) the Unifoil, a design where Im trying to mold the twin foils into one piece.

And yup...it goes in that direction.
Regards, SF.

C'mon guys, It'd be good to hear what everyone thinks, I make this stuff for fun but also so I can get feedback and questions from the guys who ride, or did ...or want to ride... I need your comments to help me progress along, even if you hate what I make.
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bgreen



Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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Location: Qld. Oz

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:41 am    Post subject: Flipper and other ideas. Reply with quote

Surffoils,

I had a look at your web-pages. How do these various boards ride? What sort of waves do you ride them in.

Bob
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surffoils



Joined: 12 May 2007
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Location: Gold Coast, (finally), Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry guys, my mistake again.
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surffoils



Joined: 12 May 2007
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Location: Gold Coast, (finally), Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:28 am    Post subject: Re: Flipper and other ideas. Reply with quote

bgreen wrote:
Surffoils,

I had a look at your web-pages. How do these various boards ride? What sort of waves do you ride them in.

Bob


Hi Bob, thanks for your reply man, it can get lonely telling a story when no one answers back.!!!

Like most riders and amateur shapers, I try all different things searching for a difference. I moved onto paipos cause I seperated a shoulder years ago so I can only paddle with one arm.
Most of the bizarre designs Ive tried ride fairly poorly,( as expected).

But occaisionally a new idea develops into a drawing and then makes it into a prototype and then goes thru the painful construction process of multiple variations in the search for Nirvana.
There are very few new ideas in surfcraft design, but there are new products arriving and I'm always keen to push the limits of whats compatable.
In answer to your question, the various boards ride differently and if you are interested I can send you one to try.
I live at Queenscliff, next to Manly, Sydney,Australia so the waves are mainly beachbeaks, some point and reef action nearby.
Its meaty stuff at times, but usually up to OH size face.... not on a par with Hawaiian waves but the boards work in average waves no problem.

Regards, SF.
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bgreen



Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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Location: Qld. Oz

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:03 pm    Post subject: Flipper and other ideas Reply with quote

Surffoils,

There is a very good chance that I am the closest poster on this list to you. I live in Brisbane, not the surf capital of Australia, but handy to waves to the north, south and east.

I took up paipos (mid 2004) after back problems and when I travel I take my 7 board as well as a paipo. Often I end up having more fun on the paipo just cause I catch more waves compared to what I would get with my board and still dodgy back. I have never personally met another paipo rider and never even seen one ridden - experimentation and advice from others forms my experience.

I now have two of John Galera's boards and a HPD. Have been tossing up buying a wooden paipo from Noosa, but they are not cheap. I also toyed with making a wooden one, but besides not being that talented with such things, there seemed such a myriad of designs I never got a clear idea of what I thought would be a good shape.

Which of your paipo designs do you reckon has gone the best?

Bob
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surffoils



Joined: 12 May 2007
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Location: Gold Coast, (finally), Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:16 pm    Post subject: Whod a thunk it !! Reply with quote

Hi Bob, how likely or unlikely is that coincidence !! Or series of similarities ! My folks are in Surfers.
I too have never seen another paipo ridden but I always choose a paipo or bodyboard to ride.
Ive seen Johns NOFIN boards on the web and the HPD's, all great stuff.

And Andy Bicks Paipoglide boards from the UK look cool too.

Im working on the Unifoil idea at the moment, Ive combined the area I used with the twin foils and tweaking the shape a bit. In the end it will be ridden as a stand alone piece and then I will mount it under a BB ( Body Board) for a bit of fun.
If I get it up and running would you be interested in having one of the Unifoils ?
If not I have another HWS paipo project about to start that I will make and then ship it on up to you.
Or alternately, what would you like to ride? If I can make it , I will.
Good to hear there is another Aussie in the ranks.!!

Regards, SF.
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Poobah
Dolphin Glider


Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 696
Location: California, San Diego

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the bodyboard.....did you ever try it with just the rear foil? Is it a fairly stiff board, like with internal rods? And what inspired you to tinker with hydrofoils in the first place?
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surffoils



Joined: 12 May 2007
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Location: Gold Coast, (finally), Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poobah, yes the BB is a Mike Stewart with 2 internal carbon(?) rods to stiffen it up, I chose it because it was stiff and it would be a stable platform to mount the 2 foils on.
I did try it with just a rear foil but I found it was 'tippy' front to back, possibly because the chord of the foil was only 8 inches. Just too small.

Thats one of the reasons for making this Unifoil beast, to see if I can get a similar thing going like Gilbert Glum and Gaylord Miller, I admire the guys who can think of something and then build it themselves.

Seeing the simplicity of the foils was attractive too, as well as knowing it would be relatively easy to build updated versions one after another.
SF.
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bgreen



Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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Location: Qld. Oz

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Whod a thunk it !! Reply with quote

Surffoils,

There seem to be a multiple of parameters on which paipo vary:

1. There seem two basic plan-shapes: a. wide in the tail & narrower in the nose & b. parallel rails, with a variety of nose and tail shapes.

2. board thickness seems to be either very thin (eg plywood thickness) or approximately 2 or so inches thick.

3. Rocker seems to vary from virtually nil to considerable.

4. Bottom shapes seem infiite in their variation.

5. Rails are a bit of a mystery to me on paipo, but seem to vary greatly and do not necessarily reflect surfboard designs.

6. Neutral/ low buoyancy.

7. No fins or fins. Channels are one alternative to fins.

I prefer the slightly thicker, than really thin boards for two reasons - the thin are a lot more work to paddle and I tend to feel the surface bumps more in my back.

I don't really expect you to send a board for free but we can talk some more about possibilities.

Bob
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surffoils



Joined: 12 May 2007
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Location: Gold Coast, (finally), Australia

PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,
the rising tide of unloved prototypes is getting higher and higher under the house. Shocked



Take a free board and give me some feedback, that would be greatest for me!
SF.
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bgreen



Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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Location: Qld. Oz

PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:07 am    Post subject: Whod a thunk it !! Reply with quote

Surffoils,

The options are a bit bewildering. Not keen on the ones with a body board base as they are probably too flexy. I'd probably try something about 5', no fin and with reasonable flotation. Any boards fit this description.

I'd be interested to see the side profile of the redwood version. How does it ride?

Bob
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surffoils



Joined: 12 May 2007
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Location: Gold Coast, (finally), Australia

PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: Whod a thunk it !! Reply with quote

bgreen wrote:
Surffoils,

There seem to be a multiple of parameters on which paipo vary:

1. There seem two basic plan-shapes: a. wide in the tail & narrower in the nose & b. parallel rails, with a variety of nose and tail shapes.

2. board thickness seems to be either very thin (eg plywood thickness) or approximately 2 or so inches thick.

3. Rocker seems to vary from virtually nil to considerable.

4. Bottom shapes seem infiite in their variation.

5. Rails are a bit of a mystery to me on paipo, but seem to vary greatly and do not necessarily reflect surfboard designs.

6. Neutral/ low buoyancy.

7. No fins or fins. Channels are one alternative to fins.

I prefer the slightly thicker, than really thin boards for two reasons - the thin are a lot more work to paddle and I tend to feel the surface bumps more in my back.

I don't really expect you to send a board for free but we can talk some more about possibilities.

Bob


Hi Bob, taking each point youve raised...

1. The wide tail planshape seems to me to be the most enjoyable to ride, but its just a personal preference. The bigger area at the tail gives quicker planing at most speed and provides a nice wide area to pivot on when turning. And because theres more board in the tail, it would also naturally have better bouyancy in the tail too.
Ive ridden skinny tails and they provide better hold in bigger waves but overall the big bottomed boards get my vote as being a better allround shape.
2. Im getting too old for thin boards so I'll vote for boards with a bit of thickness, but with the thickness comes more bouyancy and a better ability for a board to lift and run quicker/ higher and smoothly connect turns.
I think thin boards have a more intimate connection with the wave but thats not always pleasant.
3. A few of the hydrofoiled boards I made with curved surfaces and they were slower than dead flat foils. Rocker helps with turning but paipos are short and easy to throw around anyway, so rocker is more useful on a paipo in keeping the nose up and preventing a board from pearling. Ive tried to build a flat board that had a forward foil to keep the nose up....


4.Bottom shapes are a pandoras box, I reckon most of the surfboard theory is relevant to paipos, but Im not sure how much.
5. Rails. I like the concave rails because they do nothing but release so I can relate to the performance of the board through the other design elements. With professional paipo and BB shapers tending towards release, maybe fat round rails are best left on surfboards. But round rails on thin single piece paipos is a safety /aesthetic measure and to stop the edges chipping..
6. Bouyancy is probably more a result of the materials used than a specific goal. A quick ply shape with low bouyancy doesnt paddle well, but glue a 1/2 in skin of styrofoam or EVA to the deck and its a supertanker.
7. Fins, The longest axis of a fin is its strongest direction. I tried 18 in long/ low fins hoping theyd be really directional and fast....and they were crap. But I keep trying stuff..



Those NOFIN boards look really well designed. I wish I'd thought of that!

I dont expect anyone to agreee with my raving opinions but Id like to discuss what others think about design theories and what theyve discovered.
SF.
The redwood board was just an exercise in shaping a solid board, Its a copy of the smaller Hawaiian bodyboards. Flat and with a bit of nose lift / deck concave and round rails.
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surffoils



Joined: 12 May 2007
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Location: Gold Coast, (finally), Australia

PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:30 pm    Post subject: Unifoil Reply with quote

Ive finished shaping the Unifoil and did a quick art job on it so it will be ready for a test run tomorrow.






Heres a few possible outlines for the next paipo.. any thoughts?



Thanks, SF.
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Nels
Dolphin Glider


Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 340
Location: Ventura County, California

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I dont expect anyone to agreee with my raving opinions but Id like to discuss what others think about design theories and what theyve discovered.
SF.


I barely have time to think any more or I would have responded earlier...inactivity doesn't mean people aren't checking things out...keep posting projects and results!

You mentioned "Andy Bicks Paipoglide" from the Uk...never heard of the person or boards...might have missed it here but would be interested in more info ...

What does the deck of the standup board with the grating look like? How'd you mount that one? Did it ever get ridden?

Nels
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