View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Poobah Dolphin Glider
![](images/avatars/4264b0c607e20306.jpg)
Joined: 09 Jan 2004 Posts: 696 Location: California, San Diego
|
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:43 am Post subject: Oiled Paipos |
|
|
To oil or not to oil? That is the question, of course it raises even more questions. What sort of oil and why? What has actually been tried and tested? I've been doing a little searching on the internet. No luck with oiled paipos or lamaroos. Some recent mention of linseed oil on alai replicas. Several mentions of kukui nut oil on surfboards and canoes. One site said old Hawaiian surfboards had a base coat of kukui oil, and were periodically top coated with coconut oil. I have my doubts about the use of coconut oil. More about that later.
I found sites about oil for musical instruments, kendo sticks, the teak in a Boston Whaler, the wood in the beds of custom pick up trucks and outdoor furniture just to name a few. I'll try to summarize some of the useful bits. One bit of trivia that I found interesting had to do with the immensity of the internal surface area of wood. Supposedly the internal surfaces of a cubic centimeter of wood can be equivalent to the surface area of several pages in a magazine. A factor of thousands.
Some oils dry better than others. Without getting deep into the chemistry, there is a test using iodine that allows oils to be ranked by their ability to dry or polymerize. Linseed, tung and kukui have high iodine values and dry well. Coconut, palm and cocao butter have low iodine values. That's why I'm dubious about the use of coconut oil on surfboards. I should also note that oils aren't a single substance. They are made of numerous fatty acids, some of which aid in drying more than others. Follow this next link, then scroll about half way down the page to get to an iodine value chart. Notice that whale oil has a high value.
http://vegburner.co.uk/oils.htm |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
Poobah Dolphin Glider
![](images/avatars/4264b0c607e20306.jpg)
Joined: 09 Jan 2004 Posts: 696 Location: California, San Diego
|
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Is your paipo oil already in your house? I'm talking about the kitchen, not the garage. Here's a website that shows iodine values for some cooking oils. Walnut oil looks promising.
http://www.libertyvegetableoil.com/products.html
Some of the kendo stick guys like to use canola oil. Pam in the spray can was handy for touch ups. Canola is mid range on the iodine values, and may be more appropriate for kendo sticks than wave sticks.
Myself I decided to test Watco Teak Oil for my first oiled paipo. I put it on a timber paipo today. I also want to try it on a plywood paipo. Why Watco? I liked the prospect of mildew and UV protection. Plus I liked the quick and easy application. One coat, wait 30 minutes, 2nd coat, wait 15 minutes, wipe dry, boom, you're done and you go do something else.
http://www.westernwooddoctor.com/watcoteakoil.htm
I was using mixed woods, poplar and pine. I periodically brushed more oil onto the pine as it sucked up the oil. Particularly the end grain. |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
Poobah Dolphin Glider
![](images/avatars/4264b0c607e20306.jpg)
Joined: 09 Jan 2004 Posts: 696 Location: California, San Diego
|
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
Oil vs Varnish? I like varnished boards. Good abrasion protection. They look great, but I have to wonder if varnish has been the death of some boards. I saw a show on TV last year in which a guy pulled an old Hawaiian paipo out from under his house. The varnish was cracked and peeling. He used wet sand to smooth some of the sharpest edges, and then took it out. He still got some cuts. It made me wonder how many varnished paipos have gone into retirement and never come back. Crawled under the house to die along with the stoke and culture.
What is the dark side of oiled paipos? Can the solvents used to thin some oils cause damage to the glue joints? Say for example someone making their own home brew out mineral spirits and linseed oil? Any furniture or boat guys want to comment on that?
One thing I like about oil is that I can change my mind, and varnish the board later on. For example the Watco brand I'm testing can be varnished after the oil finish has dried for 72 hours. Note that oil based varnishes are usually high in tung oil. I suspect that the teak oil finish I used may contain a little bit of varnish, but it's a secret recipe so I'll never really know.
Of course where you live can be a factor. Heat and moisture in the wood can force varnish off the wood. Flexing could help crack the varnish. Wouldn't an oiled paipo be better than varnish in a tropical location? |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
Poobah Dolphin Glider
![](images/avatars/4264b0c607e20306.jpg)
Joined: 09 Jan 2004 Posts: 696 Location: California, San Diego
|
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Here's a site where a guy tested different brands and types of finishes. His test conditions are more extreme than what most paipos would be subjected, but if you've got some spare time, then you might want to check it out...
http://www.mar-k.com/wood_finish_testing.html |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
Uncle Grumpy
![](images/avatars/325884cc05ff80b1b6.jpg)
Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: Location: San Clemente
|
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
I could bend your ear for hours on this subject.
I make my living working wood and metal, own a 19' wooden boat and also used to volunteer on one of the local tallships.
Let me ask you first why you want an oiled board? If just for that look and old style OK.
Watco is mostly boiled linseed and pigments. BTW so called "boiled" Linseed oil is not boiled it just has metallic dryers in it to make it set up otherwise linseed oil takes forever to dry.
If you want to treat the board like an old time menehune I would suggest going ahead and using one of the nut oils like tung, walnut or even kukui if you can get it; these nut oils will dry on their own.
There are also some high tech boat finishes you may like the look of.
Shoot me a PM if you want I'll give you tons more info on choices and how to. |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
Poobah Dolphin Glider
![](images/avatars/4264b0c607e20306.jpg)
Joined: 09 Jan 2004 Posts: 696 Location: California, San Diego
|
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
I chose a pre mixed product to avoid mixing the various components. I also wanted to test something that is widely available to other people. Why do I want an oiled board? Mostly it's to cut down the time between shaping and test riding. Same is true for altering/reshaping the board.
I don't think we've had a thread devoted to oiled boards here at Rod's before. I'm betting there are at least a few folks here that would be rather grumpy if we took any of the discussion offline.
How about an oil combo? Can you seal a non dryng oil with a coat or two of drying oil? Kukui over the top of coconut for example?
Here's a guy that says to disregard the Watco instructions, and use a burnishing technique...
http://www.wwch.org/Technique/Finishes/OilFin.htm |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
Uncle Grumpy
![](images/avatars/325884cc05ff80b1b6.jpg)
Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: Location: San Clemente
|
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The only reason I suggested a pm was I was going to give you my ph. # so we could talk; I'm a crappy and slow typist
I had a look at that website; those directions of his are pretty close to the way I use that stuff. He mentions the oil / varnish mixes; these work really quite well and may be the ticket for you.
A very nice finish can be made with a raw pure nut oil(Tung or Walnut), beeswax and thinner preferably real turpentine. Varnish is not necessary.
Want you want to end up with is a semi liquid thick paste.
It work best to shave the beeswax with a grater, makes the mixing easier. The secret to this is it has to be heated and this must be done very carefully as wax is highly explosive. A double boiler over an electric hot plate works well. Realy warm sunshine works too.
You will never get a non dying oil to dry without adding chemical dryers.
Pure Tung and Walnut oils applied wth his directions will dry on there own and can be coated with paste wax.
Most varnishes are a pain in the ass becase of the amount of coats involved and varnish typically does not deal well with flex.
If you want a shiney board there are a few boat finishes tha are slightly easier then traditional varnish.
I think these are both linseed based.
http://www.flood.com/Flood/Products/Exterior/Marine/Deks+Olje+Product+Page.htm
http://www.tarsmell.com/letonkinois_original.html |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
Uncle Grumpy
![](images/avatars/325884cc05ff80b1b6.jpg)
Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: Location: San Clemente
|
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The only reason I suggested a pm was I was going to give you my ph. # so we could talk; I'm a crappy and slow typist
I had a look at that website; those directions of his are pretty close to the way I use that stuff. He mentions the oil / varnish mixes; these work really quite well and may be the ticket for you.
A very nice finish can be made with a raw pure nut oil(Tung or Walnut), beeswax and thinner preferably real turpentine. Varnish is not necessary.
What you want to end up with is a semi liquid thick paste. More Wax and Oil using just enough thinner to get it squishy.
It works best to shave the beeswax with a grater, makes the mixing easier. The secret to this is it has to be heated and this must be done very carefully as wax is highly explosive. A double boiler over an electric hot plate works well. Realy warm sunshine works too.
You will never get a non drying oil linseed or whatever to dry without adding chemical dryers.
Pure Tung and Walnut oils applied wth his directions will dry on their own and can be coated with paste wax.
Most varnishes are a pain in the ass because of the amount of coats involved and varnish typically does not deal well with flex.
If you want a shiney board there are a few boat finishes that are slightly easier then traditional varnish.
I think these are both linseed based.
http://www.flood.com/Flood/Products/Exterior/Marine/Deks+Olje+Product+Page.htm
http://www.tarsmell.com/letonkinois_original.html
The way back oldtimers, when done with their boards for a while would wash, dry, oil and wrap them in tapa for storage.
Let me know if you want more....... |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
Phantom Dolphin Glider
Joined: 10 Jan 2004 Posts: 64 Location: state of wa....shington
|
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: Oiled Knowledge |
|
|
Thanks for keeping this thread out in the open, there may be a few of us less articulated, and keyboard challenged than you might expect. A few of us PNW guys could even be scavenging wood just to stay warm, and having to make the call wether to burn or ride that plank! |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
Uncle Grumpy
![](images/avatars/325884cc05ff80b1b6.jpg)
Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: Location: San Clemente
|
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Aww come on my brother lives in Port Orford OR and if there is one thing I know for sure; there is still plenty of wood left in the PNW.
Of course there is a hell of a lot of clear cut as well but that's a whole
other kettle of fish;(salmon) so to speak. ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
Nels Dolphin Glider
Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 340 Location: Ventura County, California
|
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Burn it all...let God sort it out...both sides of my family are from and pretty much still in the PNW and half of them have restrictions on simple fireplace use...
When I was building my paipos and handboards last summer I went with the conventional polyurethane...I know people have used wax and stuff...
what happens to wetsuits when you use some of these oils? Contact is made, unavoidable. |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
Uncle Grumpy
![](images/avatars/325884cc05ff80b1b6.jpg)
Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: Location: San Clemente
|
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well I know you'd have no problem at all with tung or walnut oil. Both are food grade and essentially inert when dry.
I bet with a little experimentation you could come up with a friendly bees surf wax too. I think Roy Stewart has some kind of recipe.
Quote: | Burn it all...let God sort it out... |
Well I guess that's better then selling it cheap to Asia. |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
bgreen
![](images/avatars/7001473fd91dcbdf6.jpg)
Joined: 20 Feb 2004 Posts: Location: Qld. Oz
|
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: oiled paipo |
|
|
"A very nice finish can be made with a raw pure nut oil(Tung or Walnut), beeswax and thinner preferably real turpentine. Varnish is not necessary.
Want you want to end up with is a semi liquid thick paste. "
What quantity or proportion of each do you recommend,
Bob |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
Uncle Grumpy
![](images/avatars/325884cc05ff80b1b6.jpg)
Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: Location: San Clemente
|
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'd start out with a cup of oil and a hunk of beeswax a little bigger then a golf ball and just a bit of turps. Don't use paraffin.
Grate the wax into the oil and warm it up till the wax melts a bit and slowly add the turps till you get the right consistency.
A crock pot works great for warming it up but always do it outside. |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
bgreen
![](images/avatars/7001473fd91dcbdf6.jpg)
Joined: 20 Feb 2004 Posts: Location: Qld. Oz
|
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:19 am Post subject: oiled paipo |
|
|
Thanks - I think we get enough sunshine in sunny Queensland to use this option rather than the exploding crock-pot.
Bob |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif) |
|