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Fin Shapes, Sizes and Set Ups???

 
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ellis1973



Joined: 11 Jul 2011
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Location: Tynemouth, UK

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:35 pm    Post subject: Fin Shapes, Sizes and Set Ups??? Reply with quote

Me again. I was wondering if most of you guys use fins on their paipo? And what size and set up you use and how it makes your board ride?
Cheers again for any answers!
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SJB



Joined: 18 Dec 2010
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Location: Santa Barbara

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ride an Austin which has the 2-1 set up......but I have only used the center fin once and I found it superfluous and it seemed to restrict the maneuverability unnecessarily. Having said that.....I am seldom out in anything overhead and when it gets to 8ft+ I stay on shore. I use the standard side fin size that Austin provides with the board....3 inch range.
Austin told me he prefers to just use the side bites also.
I believe Rod likes the center fin....5 inch......with 2 inch side bites. I hope I am not misrepresenting him.
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Uncle Grumpy



Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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Location: San Clemente

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You will never go faster then you will on a finless board.
Fins give you better turning ability but you will sacrifice speed.
If you have never tried a thin finless paipo/alaia you owe it to yourself to make one and ride it. The feeling is like no other.
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rodndtube
Dolphin Glider


Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 690
Location: USA, MD, Baltimore

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SJB wrote:
I ride an Austin which has the 2-1 set up......but I have only used the center fin once and I found it superfluous and it seemed to restrict the maneuverability unnecessarily. Having said that.....I am seldom out in anything overhead and when it gets to 8ft+ I stay on shore. I use the standard side fin size that Austin provides with the board....3 inch range.
Austin told me he prefers to just use the side bites also.
I believe Rod likes the center fin....5 inch......with 2 inch side bites. I hope I am not misrepresenting him.


Yes, I've been using side bites in the range of 1.75 and 2.25 inches, along with a center fin. The size of side bites is partially dependent upon what is available commercially. My reef eaters are Turbo Tunnel Thrusters (made of plastic they get chewed up easily on the reefs). I also use some customs/semi-customs. See more: http://mypaipoboards.org/skegs/MySideBites.shtml

My center fins in current use are 4" and 4.5". I vary the placement in the Fins Unlimited box depending upon wave conditions. The center fin is good for projection on turns. The sidebites and center fin are great for controlled sideslips and other turning on waves that you simply can't get with a finless board (IMHO). Keep in mind that I ride the Austin foam/glass boards that are roughly 2" and 2.5" thick with a wide tail.
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SJB



Joined: 18 Dec 2010
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Location: Santa Barbara

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Grumpy suggest a finless board is the speediest.....and although I do not want to get on the wrong side of someone with that moniker......my experience with finless is that sometimes It seems I spend energy sliding sideways toward shore when I would prefer more direction along the face of a wave to get through a section before it closes out. The fins seem to provide that direction. No? Trade offs?
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Uncle Grumpy



Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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Location: San Clemente

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SJB,
I suspect you are talking about trying to ride your Austin finless and if so, that's the problem.
Finless boards really work best with thin rails, not chunky surfboard rails.

Your skepticism indicates to me you've likely never ridden a proper paipo.
Scrounge up a 2' X 4' hunk of plywood and whip out a board like OG AZN's and see for yourself.




My daily ride, modeled after Tom Wegener's Findley, is finless, less then " and hauls ass right past finned surfboards and boogers.



Of course, on boards like this, the obvious trade off is you won't be "schralping" or "shredding", but they fly like nothing else and with a little water time, you can actually carve very smooth turns.
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OG-AZN



Joined: 27 Jul 2009
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Location: Norcal

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never used fins on a paipo. I was going to give it a try on my latest board, making a copy of one of my longboard center fins, but I thought better of it and took it off before the first test ride. Board works just fine without it, even when knee riding or drop knee. When I was growing up in Hawai'i, I recall paipos with fins were in the minority. Might have had something to do with the "no skegs" rule at popular paipo spots like Makapu'u, Panics, & the Wall. The paipos I tried that had fins seemed slower & stiffer/less maneuverable than ones without - it was hard to break them out of a straight line. I don't think fins are necessary on a short paipo board where your legs & swim fins can easily engage the face of the wave for control if you have to. All my paipos have been 4 ft or less, and 3/4" or less thick.
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rodndtube
Dolphin Glider


Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 690
Location: USA, MD, Baltimore

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Uncle Grumpy that finless boards work best with thin boards. Several other arguments about finless vs. finned become more complicated largely because of the nature of compromise in board design. A board design maximized for speed may not turn very well. A board design maximized for turning may be much slower.

Even speed needs to be defined: (1) straight down the line speed or speed created from projection and torque in turns?

There is no doubt that most would consider skegs bringing several capabilities -- virtually ALL stand-up surfboards have skegs, 1, 2, 3 or 4 and sometimes 5. I have seen very, very few kneeboards without skegs -- 2 or 4 are favorite setups. George Greenough uses a skeg on his "thin" velo-style board... a large one. Even wake boards and kite boards have fins.

Ultimately, it is up to the individual rider to determine the relative value of skegs. The best way to evaluate the relative benefits is to have a board with at least a 3 fin set-up and experiement with different fin sizes on the sides and center fin and forward or aft placement of the center fin. With an FCS box you can also experiment somewhat with placement if you have a single male plug FCS fin (instead of the standard double male plug).
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Uncle Grumpy



Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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Location: San Clemente

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a twelve page discussion RE: finless boards on Sway's:

http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/less-fins

Most have complicated bottoms like this:



or this




Ryan Burch and Tyler Warren's "yard possum" crew are some of the younger surfers out there who understand you don't necessarily need "skegs" or complicated bottom and rail shapes on a surfboard to get the job done.

http://vimeo.com/8941685



One of the now famous "Lord Boards"




I should add that my latest project is a twin fin, epoxy glassed, balsa/redwood bellyboard so I'm not strictly a finless freak.

But I do know what's fastest. Razz
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bgreen



Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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Location: Qld. Oz

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been just transcribing an interview for Rod where the issue of fins versus finless came up. Unlike the interviewee, I find that finless boards slide not when it is hollow but when it is full and you lose the edge. This has been the case on alaia, Galera no fins & a Goddard replica. The strategy to handle this varies across the respective board type.

In hollow, solid waves I find these boards grip not slide. Sliding can occur if a wave suddenly goes from hollow to full & very occasionally, if body positioning is not right.

Bob
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Uncle Grumpy



Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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Location: San Clemente

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite right Bob.
Riding up high, they fly in control, but let 'em get down in the flats and that's when it's time to "slide ass" Laughing
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ellis1973



Joined: 11 Jul 2011
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Location: Tynemouth, UK

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rodndtube wrote:
SJB wrote:
I ride an Austin which has the 2-1 set up......but I have only used the center fin once and I found it superfluous and it seemed to restrict the maneuverability unnecessarily. Having said that.....I am seldom out in anything overhead and when it gets to 8ft+ I stay on shore. I use the standard side fin size that Austin provides with the board....3 inch range.
Austin told me he prefers to just use the side bites also.
I believe Rod likes the center fin....5 inch......with 2 inch side bites. I hope I am not misrepresenting him.


Yes, I've been using side bites in the range of 1.75 and 2.25 inches, along with a center fin. The size of side bites is partially dependent upon what is available commercially. My reef eaters are Turbo Tunnel Thrusters (made of plastic they get chewed up easily on the reefs). I also use some customs/semi-customs. See more: http://mypaipoboards.org/skegs/MySideBites.shtml

My center fins in current use are 4" and 4.5". I vary the placement in the Fins Unlimited box depending upon wave conditions. The center fin is good for projection on turns. The sidebites and center fin are great for controlled sideslips and other turning on waves that you simply can't get with a finless board (IMHO). Keep in mind that I ride the Austin foam/glass boards that are roughly 2" and 2.5" thick with a wide tail.


My board has the same 2+1 set up as the Austin and I struggle to find centre fins smaller than 6". Where do you get yours? I was going to chop down a 7" fin but I dont really understand the science behind it so am a bit wary. I use the turbo tunnel side bites too! They are great but just hard to get hold of.
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rodndtube
Dolphin Glider


Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 690
Location: USA, MD, Baltimore

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ellis1973 wrote:

My board has the same 2+1 set up as the Austin and I struggle to find centre fins smaller than 6". Where do you get yours? I was going to chop down a 7" fin but I dont really understand the science behind it so am a bit wary. I use the turbo tunnel side bites too! They are great but just hard to get hold of.


I steal them away! Guess that really applies to my 4.5" carbon fiber fin that was serial numbered and matched to specific Takayama longboard. LOL. Really, just talked my way into them letting me buy it. I really like this fin in riding tropical, shallow reefs.

My other short center fins have been picked up here and there at surf shops. Suggest checking eBay (where I buy most of my Turbo Tunnel Side Bites when not directly through the company, sometimes a special deal) and some on-line fin sites. Most of the major fin makers have catalogs that are more extensive then their on-line offerings. Fins Unlimited, Rainbow Fin Company and True Ames are good companies to go through and hopefully have UK distributors. If not, track down fin makers in Europe where shipping wouldn't be an issue. Some links here:
http://www.rodndtube.com/surf/info/WaveRidersPage.shtml

I usually order 2 or 3 pairs of sidebites at a time. The Turbo Tunnels do the performance part of the job but are built from weak plastic and the reefs tend to chew them up!
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ellis1973



Joined: 11 Jul 2011
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Location: Tynemouth, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rodndtube wrote:
ellis1973 wrote:

My board has the same 2+1 set up as the Austin and I struggle to find centre fins smaller than 6". Where do you get yours? I was going to chop down a 7" fin but I dont really understand the science behind it so am a bit wary. I use the turbo tunnel side bites too! They are great but just hard to get hold of.


I steal them away! Guess that really applies to my 4.5" carbon fiber fin that was serial numbered and matched to specific Takayama longboard. LOL. Really, just talked my way into them letting me buy it. I really like this fin in riding tropical, shallow reefs.

My other short center fins have been picked up here and there at surf shops. Suggest checking eBay (where I buy most of my Turbo Tunnel Side Bites when not directly through the company, sometimes a special deal) and some on-line fin sites. Most of the major fin makers have catalogs that are more extensive then their on-line offerings. Fins Unlimited, Rainbow Fin Company and True Ames are good companies to go through and hopefully have UK distributors. If not, track down fin makers in Europe where shipping wouldn't be an issue. Some links here:
http://www.rodndtube.com/surf/info/WaveRidersPage.shtml

I usually order 2 or 3 pairs of sidebites at a time. The Turbo Tunnels do the performance part of the job but are built from weak plastic and the reefs tend to chew them up!



Thanks again for the info!!! The companies you have listed look great. Im going to get on the case and get some decent fins.
Cheers again
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